I've read a lot of posts on another Titanic forum and the subject sparks some interest to the validity of his story of being in the freezing water for a hour or two. We all watched Titanic the movie and watched Chief Baker Joughin climb up the poop deck and hang on the rail drinking from his flask beside Rose & Jack. But in real life I find his personal account just a little far fetched. Many claim a tumbler half-full of liqueur Joughin drank contributed to his amazing ability to withstand the freezing cold water for hours because the belief the alcohol metabolized to sugar and provided that extra energy to avoid freezing to death. After reading his testimony at http://www.titanicinquiry.org/BOTInq/BOT01.html
I know find more questions than answers. I'm a firm believer in modern medical science and the effects of alcohol and freezing water. In no case history can I find where any person survived emerged in freezing water. This site gives a good working knowlage of hypotherma.
http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/safety/hypocold.shtml

I personally feel the effects of the rapid consumption of alcohol, the trama of the event and the freezing water. I am puzzled by Joughin's recollecton of the stern "sliding" into the water.


Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.
6253. It has been stated that she turned practically perpendicular. I want to ask your opinion about that, because I think it is very important. Did you see the propellers come out of the water at all? - She was not far out of the water at any stage that I saw.

6254. So that to say that she stood up like that - (Showing.) - would be wrong? - It would be absolutely wrong.

6255. She simply glided away? - She went down that fashion (Showing.) It was a glide. There was no great shock, or anything.

6256-66. She simply glided away? - She simply glided away. [6256-66 were all given to this one question.]

This is in direct controdition of 100's of other surviviors account. If he could be so wrong on this account can't we surmize that his assumption of time he was in the water could be questioned also?
Here is more of his testimony: I only included the portion of the testimonies dealing with the finial sinking to keep this on topic: See any of the discrepancies?

Examined by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL.
6070. Did you find anybody else holding that rail there on, the poop? - No.

6071. You were the only one? - I did not see anybody else.

6072. Were you holding the rail so that you were inside the ship, or were you holding the rail so that you were on the outside of the ship? - On the outside.

6073. So that the rail was between you and the deck? - Yes.

6074. Then what happened? - Well, I was just wondering what next to do. I had tightened my belt and I had transferred some things out of this pocket into my stern pocket. I was just wondering what next to do when she went.

6075. And did you find yourself in the water? - Yes.

6076. Did you feel that you were dragged under or did you keep on the top of the water? - I do not believe my head went under the water at all. It may have been wetted, but no more.

6077. Are you a good swimmer? - Yes.

6078. How long do you think you were in the water before you got anything to hold on to? - I did not attempt to get anything to hold on to until I reached a collapsible, but that was daylight.

6079. Daylight, was it? - I do not know what time it was.

6080. Then you were in the water for a long, long time? - I should say over two, hours, Sir.

6081. Were you trying to make progress in the water, to swim, or just keeping where you were? - I was just paddling and treading water.

6082. And then daylight broke? - Yes.

6083. Did you see any icebergs about you? - No, Sir, I could not see anything.

6084. Did it keep calm till daylight, or did the wind rise at all? - It was just like a pond.

6085. Then you spoke of a collapsible boat. Tell us shortly about it? - Just as it was breaking daylight I saw what I thought was some wreckage, and I started to swim towards it slowly. When I got near enough, I found it was a collapsible not properly upturned but on its side, with an Officer and I should say about twenty or twenty-five men standing on the top of it.

6086. (The Commissioner.) With an Officer and what? - I should say roughly about twenty-five men standing on the top - well, on the side, not on the top.

6087. (The Solicitor-General.) Do you know which Officer it was? - Yes, Mr. Lightoller.

6088. Mr. Lightoller and you think about twenty or twenty-five people? - Yes.

The Commissioner: "Men," he said.

6089. (The Solicitor-General.) Yes, men, my Lord? - Yes, all men.

6090. You said something about its being turned on its side? - Yes.

6091. I wish you would explain what you mean? - It was like as if one of those lifeboats was on its side, floating on its side. (Pointing to model.)

6092. Then they were not in the boat, were they? - No.

6093. They were - ? - Standing on the side, holding one another's shoulders.

6094. Did you swim towards it? - Yes.

6095. Was there any room for you? - No, Sir.

6096. You agree, do you, that there really was not room for you? - There was not room.

6097. And so they could not take you in? - There was no room for any more. They were standing on it then.

6098. Did you stay near it? - I tried to get on it, but I was pushed off it, and I what you call hung around it.

6099. How much later on was it that you were picked up? - I eventually got round to the opposite side, and a cook that was on the collapsible recognised me, and held out his hand and held me - a chap named Maynard.

6100. Was he able to pull you out of the water, or was he only just able to help to support you? - No.

6101. He gave you a hand, and you kept treading water? - No. My lifebelt helped me, and I held on the side of the boat.

6102. You had been wearing a lifebelt? - Yes, all the time.

6103. So that your feet would be in the water? - Yes, and my legs.

6104. And you supported yourself by your lifebelt. I do not want to be harrowing about it, but was the water very cold? - I felt colder in the lifeboat - after I got in the lifeboat.

6105. You were picked up, were you, by a lifeboat later on? - We were hanging on to this collapsible, and eventually a lifeboat came in sight.

6106. And they took you aboard? - They got within about 50 yards and they sung out that they could only take 10. So I said to this Maynard, "Let go my hand," and I swam to meet it, so that I would be one of the 10.

6107. Did you swim to it, and were you taken in? - Yes, I was taken in.

6108. You have said you thought it was about two hours before you saw this collapsible, and then you spent some time with the collapsible. How long do you suppose it was after you got to the collapsible that you were taken into the lifeboat? - I should say we were on the collapsible about half-an-hour.

6109. That means that for some two and a half hours you were in the water? - Practically, yes.

6110. We may be able to identify this boat? - I do not know it.

The Attorney-General: We can identify it, I think.

6111. (The Solicitor-General.) This lifeboat that took you aboard - did it also take some men off the collapsible? - Yes.

6112. How many? - I could not tell you, Sir.

6113. You did not notice? - I climbed in and then she went alongside the collapsible afterwards, after I had got in, but I did not notice how many she took.

6114. Do you know an able seaman named Lucas? - No, Sir.

6115. Who has given some evidence here? - No.

6116. Can you tell me this. Did this lifeboat that took you aboard, and also took some others aboard, keep you in it until you got to the "Carpathia," or were any people transferred? - All kept in it till we got to the "Carpathia."

6117. You do not know who was in command of the boat that picked you up? - Mr. Lightoller left the collapsible and then took charge of the boat till we reached the "Carpathia."

6118. And you say the collapsible kept company with the lifeboat, did it? - I do not know what became of that afterwards, Sir. It was half under water while we were on it. I do not know whether it righted itself. I do not know what became of it at all.

6119. After you and some of the others were taken on board this lifeboat, did that lifeboat rescue any other people that you know of? - No, Sir; it could not have done.

6120. It was too full? - It was filled right up.

6121. There was just room for Lightoller to get on board and take command? - There was only room for Mr. Lightoller to stand on the forward part. He had to stand on top and give orders.

6122. There was Mr. Lightoller and there was yourself. Do you know whether it took others on board, and how many? - It took a few more off the collapsible, but I did not recognise them.

6123. And this boat into which you got, the boat Lightoller took command of, what were the people who were in it - women, or men or what? - Mostly women. Bride was one that I recognised.

6124. The Marconi operator? - The Marconi boy. He was one that was taken off the same collapsible.

6125. He was on this collapsible, was he? - Yes, Bride and Maynard. Those two I recognised.

6126. Maynard was the cook? - Yes.

Examined by Mr. SCANLAN.

6127. Do you know whether any of the crew assigned to this boat, No. 10, went with her? - I do not know.

6128. You were captain of it? - I was supposed to be the captain of it.

6129. Can you give any explanation of the fact that from the evidence of yourself and most of the Witnesses it does not appear that practically any of the men went with the boats to which they were stationed? - Of course I could not say about other boats, but I know I sung out the names of all the victualling department connected with the boat, and they were every man there.

6130. If there had been a boat drill or a boat muster, would it have helped the members of the crew to know their stations? - They know their stations very well. They knew exactly what to do, because they had been drilled already on the "Olympic."

6131. They had not all been on the "Olympic," I take it? - A great many of them - in fact most of them. It was practically a crew from the "Olympic."

6132. Was there any light in No. 10 when she went off? - I did not see any.

6133. Was there any light in the boat you got on to? - It was daylight.

6134. A crew of two sailors and one steward went with No. 10? - That is all I saw.

6135. Is that all? - That is all I saw.

6136. Was that sufficient for a big lifeboat? - I do not know anything about lifeboats, Sir.

6137. But you were captain of one? - I am not skilled in boats; I am put down as in charge; but, then, I would always give way to a man with nautical knowledge in the boat.

6138. How many men would you expect with you in a boat of which you would have charge? - I should say about seven or eight.

6139. When this boat, No. 10, was being sent off, was there space in the boat to take in a proper crew? - The space was there, but it was filled up with women and children.

6140. Do you know if all the four collapsible boats were sent off from the ship before she sank? - I do not know, Sir.

Examined by Mr. ROCHE.

6141. You were nearly two hours or three hours in the water, so I understand, and you can help us about a matter that has aroused a good deal of interest. How much assistance did you get from your lifebelt? Did it support you without your treading water yourself? - Yes.

6142. It did? - Yes - splendid.

The Commissioner: You cannot say.

Mr. Roche: There have been a good many questions about it - whether that is so or not. That was with regard to a lifebuoy, it is true, but there have been many questions raised about this, and this gentleman is in a better position than practically anyone ever has been to give an opinion about it.

6143. (The Commissioner.) What is this lifebelt made of - is it cork? - Cork.

6144. That you tie round you? - These were a new patent, better than the old ones. You slipped it over your head, and it was like a breastplate and a backplate, and you tied two straps.

The Attorney-General: One can be produced, no doubt.

6145. (Mr. Roche.) It is very important to get it cleared up. This is the idea of the new patent, that instead of keeping it down here they put them on the body? - Mine fitted here. (Showing.)

6146. Did your men know how to get them on? - Everybody knew, it was so simple.

6147. Did you show any of them? - There was no necessity to show.

6148. Did it in fact support you throughout without your treading water? - Oh, no, you had to assist it.

6149. (The Commissioner.) But you would not have sunk if you had not done anything? - No. It is only a case of keeping your head with one of those lifebelts.

6150. (Mr. Roche.) And simply treading water and paddling? - Just paddling and you keep afloat indefinitely, I should say.

6151. Now a few questions about two other matters. You mustered your own staff and got them up? - Yes.

6152. Did you do that of your own accord, or did you get directions to do so? - I did it of my own accord.

6153. You had no directions from anybody else? - There was a, general order; I got no special directions.

6154. What was the general order; that is what I want to know? - All hands out - all hands out of your bunks. There were six of my men working.

6155. In this crowd of several hundreds that you told my Lord about, were you able to distinguish at all who they were, or what they were, whether they were all passengers or sailors or crew? - I could not make out.

6156. You could not make out who they were at all? - They were all mixed up.

Examined by Mr. EDWARDS.
The Commissioner: He told you he had one glass of liqueur.

6249. (Mr. Cotter.) Yes. (To the Witness.) What kind of a glass was it? - It was a tumbler half-full.

6250. A tumbler half-full of liqueur? - Yes.

6251. When you were on the poop did you see anybody attempting to come up on to the poop after you - following you up? - It was an impossibility for them to get on to the poop.

6252. Are there no ladders going on to the poop? - But the ship was like that. (Showing.) The ladders would be astern. The people were all on the port side in one bunch. There was nobody on the starboard side; in fact you could not see.

6253. It has been stated that she turned practically perpendicular. I want to ask your opinion about that, because I think it is very important. Did you see the propellers come out of the water at all? - She was not far out of the water at any stage that I saw.

6254. So that to say that she stood up like that - (Showing.) - would be wrong? - It would be absolutely wrong.

6255. She simply glided away? - She went down that fashion (Showing.) It was a glide. There was no great shock, or anything.

6256-66. She simply glided away? - She simply glided away. [6256-66 were all given to this one question.]

6267. When you got into the water and had swum to the collapsible boat you were pushed off, you say? - Yes.

6268. Who pushed you off? - I do not know.

6269. Did you say anything when you were pushed off? - No.

6270. You made no statement to anyone? - No.

6271. What condition were you in when you got to the "Carpathia"? - I was all right barring my feet, they were swelled.

6272. Were you able to walk up the ladder? - No.

6273. How did you get up? - On my knees.

(After a short Adjournment.)

Examined by Mr. LAING.

6363. Were you holding on to the rail at the time? - No, I was getting towards the rail. It was a quarter-past two then.

6364. And the electric light was burning then? - Yes.

6365. So that there was never a time when you were on that ship when there was not electric light where you were? - Right to the very finish that I saw.

6366. (The Commissioner.) Your opinion is it was burning until the afterpart of the ship went down. Do you mean that? - Yes, I saw it.

(The Witness withdrew.)

Hello Sundance,

This is an interesting topic, i have read the princeton page and a few books, offcourse.

I must say that Alcohol couldn't have helped the situation to the better.

The fact that it speeds up blood flow is not useful because it will loose heat quicker.

According to the web page at princeton, Alcohol intake - causes vasodilation leading to increased heat loss.

Vasodilation - increases surface blood flow, increases heat loss (when ambient temperature is less that body temperature). Maximal vasodilation can increase cutaneous blood flow to 3000 ml/minute (average flow is 300-500 ml/minute).


One explanation might be that the mental part stayed intact longer so he remained alert at the time all other body parts were subject to increased heat loss, But hanging on to the Poop deck would help most symptomps of Hypothermia.

it seems that his legs were in the water, I was all right barring my feet, they were swelled. as per his inquiry answer. But well, that must have been underwater then.

Thanks.

Problem is with a high alcohol blood content the blood
vessels have long since developed Vasodilation -
increases surface blood flow, increases heat loss
(when ambient temperature is less that body
temperature). Maximal vasodilation can increase
cutaneous blood flow to 3000 ml/minute (average flow
is 300-500 ml/minute) even before he would have
entered the water. So you have slowed blood flow and
heat diverted to surface. At 32 degrees in 5 minutes
surface flesh begins to die. 15 minutes and deep
tissue and muscles begin to die. Then there is zero
blood flow. This excellerates now the heat loss. The
normal healthy human core body temperature is 97.6 °F
or 36.4 °C. If the body temp drops to 95º - 93ºF then
Moderate Hypothermia sets in with Shivering, intense,
muscle incoordination becomes apparent, movements slow
and labored, stumbling pace, mild confusion, may
appear alert. Use sobriety test, if unable to walk a
30 foot straight line, the person is hypothermic.
When the temperature drops to
93º - 90ºF Violent shivering persists, difficulty
speaking, sluggish thinking, amnesia starts to appear,
gross muscle movements sluggish, unable to use hands,
stumbles frequently, difficulty speaking, signs of
depression, withdrawn.
Severe Hypothermia sets in at
90º - 86ºF w/ Shivering stops, exposed skin blue of
puffy, muscle coordination very poor, inability to
walk, confusion, incoherent/irrational behavior, but
may be able to maintain posture and appearance of
awareness
86º - 82ºF Muscle rigidity, semiconscious, stupor,
loss of awareness of others, pulse and respiration
rate decrease, possible heart fibrillation
82º - 78ºF Unconscious, heart beat and respiration
erractic, pulse may not be palpable
78º - 75ºF Pulmonary edema, cardiac and respiratory
failure,death. Death may occur before this temperature
is reached.
At 32 degrees the average heathy non intoxicated
person will go into the 78 -75F range in 5 -10 minutes
depending on health condition, body fat amount present
and layers of clothing worn and type. (multiple layers
of wool are the best) after that they are dead.
The body won't use enery to metabolize sugar since it
has long converted all enery to the decresed blood
flow of vasodilation. There is no way a person can
survive 3/4 submurged in 32º water with only the head
exposed for over 10 minutes. Now if he had climbed on
floating debrie and got his body out of the 32º water
then even though soak and wet, if he had wool clothing
to hold body temperature in he could streach that
survival time. My theory is just that at various times
he climbed on top different floating debrie and had
heavy woolen clothes which when wet wool still
pocesses a amazing heat retention quality. No man in
any medicial publication ever survived that length in
freezing water. I have read that book and we can't
debate he survived! But how is never really going to
be known. If there was any slim evidence of the event
as perdicted in the book it would have been noted or
cited in any AMA Americian Medicial Assn. publication.
But alcohol did not help he survive by changing to
sugar because he could have ate 5 pounds of sugar and
even taken a tenecteplase plus one 30 milligram
injection of enoxaparin to the heart and still not
increased his survival rate time period.

Unbelieveable on what these men are saying. First of all I'd like to point out as a man who has seen hypothermic Pt's who have only died in water only thirteen degrees F of water so I think it would be hard as anything for an average person to stay alive that long in water as cold as 13 below could possibly survive in those waters that night. Plus none of these statements are entirely being accurate to the proof that marine biologists have came up with through their long hrs of research and dedication. I am alittle upset on how these people are practically saving their own asses (pardon my french) to sound like they're heroes of this tragic event. Sickening isn't it? Well, that's all I can say. Thank you sundance for bringing this topic up. Very well done research my friend.

NYMedic130

There are so many aspects about the Titanic that were accidently misstated, some falsely misstated,and many purposely misstated to cover up wrong doings. Just read the two inquirey board investigations held by the United States Senate and the British Commision. http://www.titanicinquiry.org/index.html
Same witnesses but different conclusions. However both used softball questions. There was very little hardball questions with serious followup. Everyone should take time and really read the two inquiries, you can find so many discrepancies. Has anyone REALLY read the testimonys of what actions were taken at the wheel when the iceberg was spotted? That is a topic to be discussed in another thread but 99% of those who have read it missed some interesting facts! Everyone was led to believe that the watertight compartments were sealed after impact and that the water spilled over the bulkheads from one compartment to the next, guess what read the testimony of the witnesses, you will be surprised. Yet another topic that needs to be explored and discussed.............but later!