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  •  Anonymous
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titanic rivets theory
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TITANIC THEORY IS TESTED WITH YORKSHIRE HELP


Wrought iron specialist makes duplicates of suspect rivets used in doomed ship's construction for TV programme
Chris Benfield - 18 September 2006

FOR nearly 100 years, the blame for the sinking of the Titanic has been split between the iceberg and the man who sailed into it. But tomorrow night, a television documentary made with the help of a Yorkshire blacksmith will argue that faulty workmanship was another factor.

If some of the three million rivets holding the vast ship together had been stronger, the ship might have stayed afloat long enough for a full rescue operation, according to an episode in the series Seconds From Disaster, which will be screened on the National Geographic digital channel at 9 pm tomorrow.

When the ship was built by Harland & Wolff, in Belfast, between 1909 and 1911, it was pulled together mainly with steel rivets, fitted by machine. But the machine was cumbersome and parts of the hull were finished with old-fashioned iron rivets, which are easier to work by hand.

National Geographic found experts in ship construction who were surprised at the damage caused by a glancing blow against an iceberg and metallurgists who suggest that the iron rivets would have torn too easily – especially if they were contaminated with slag.

The programme makers got duplicates of the suspect rivets made by the last British specialist in wrought iron, 57-year-old Chris Topp, who runs forges at Tholthorpe, near York, and Carlton Husthwaite, near Thirsk.

He said yesterday: "I don't know much about the theory the programme is exploring. Personally, I would have thought that running a liner into an iceberg at 27 knots would have been enough to do the damage. I just told them how I would make the rivets – gave them the specifications in metallurgical terms – and they checked against what had been used at the time and said okay."

The programme includes a stress experiment which apparently shows that the iron rivets would have failed where steel would have held.

More than 1,500 of the Titanic's 2,223 passengers died when the ship sank on her way to New York, on her maiden voyage, in 1912, two hours and 40 minutes after hitting an iceberg. The wreck was discovered in 1985 and the ship's construction, and the way it broke up, have since been explored in detail. The sinking stunned the world because technologists had come to think that steel ships were equal to anything the natural world could test them with.

Six years before the Titanic disaster, the captain of a similar ship, Edward J Smith, told reporters: "I cannot conceive of any vital disaster happening to this vessel. Modern shipbuilding has gone beyond that."

And the White Star Line boasted in its promotional material: "The science of shipbuilding… has now reached to a degree of perfection in its highest form which has put wind and water almost to defiance. It has not only robbed the sea of its terrors, but has imposed upon its unstable surface comforts and even luxuries of travel surpassing anything on land."

Because of this confidence, the Titanic had enough lifeboats for only half its passengers and crew.
Posted on: 2006/11/2 10:40
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  •  lilcandycane
      lilcandycane
Re: titanic rivets theory
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you should also look at Titanic's steel itself....because to the way steel was made back then, there were alot of imperfections...check out this site

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1997/12/971227000141.htm

Since the rivets were made from steel manufactured the same way, the problem could lie there
Posted on: 2006/11/2 14:00
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Re: titanic rivit thery
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Quote:

titanicboss wrote:
TITANIC THEORY IS TESTED WITH YORKSHIRE HELP


Wrought iron specialist makes duplicates of suspect rivets used in doomed ship's construction for TV programme
Chris Benfield - 18 September 2006

FOR nearly 100 years, the blame for the sinking of the Titanic has been split between the iceberg and the man who sailed into it. But tomorrow night, a television documentary made with the help of a Yorkshire blacksmith will argue that faulty workmanship was another factor.

If some of the three million rivets holding the vast ship together had been stronger, the ship might have stayed afloat long enough for a full rescue operation, according to an episode in the series Seconds From Disaster, which will be screened on the National Geographic digital channel at 9 pm tomorrow.

When the ship was built by Harland & Wolff, in Belfast, between 1909 and 1911, it was pulled together mainly with steel rivets, fitted by machine. But the machine was cumbersome and parts of the hull were finished with old-fashioned iron rivets, which are easier to work by hand.

National Geographic found experts in ship construction who were surprised at the damage caused by a glancing blow against an iceberg and metallurgists who suggest that the iron rivets would have torn too easily – especially if they were contaminated with slag.

The programme makers got duplicates of the suspect rivets made by the last British specialist in wrought iron, 57-year-old Chris Topp, who runs forges at Tholthorpe, near York, and Carlton Husthwaite, near Thirsk.

He said yesterday: "I don't know much about the theory the programme is exploring. Personally, I would have thought that running a liner into an iceberg at 27 knots would have been enough to do the damage. I just told them how I would make the rivets – gave them the specifications in metallurgical terms – and they checked against what had been used at the time and said okay."

The programme includes a stress experiment which apparently shows that the iron rivets would have failed where steel would have held.

More than 1,500 of the Titanic's 2,223 passengers died when the ship sank on her way to New York, on her maiden voyage, in 1912, two hours and 40 minutes after hitting an iceberg. The wreck was discovered in 1985 and the ship's construction, and the way it broke up, have since been explored in detail. The sinking stunned the world because technologists had come to think that steel ships were equal to anything the natural world could test them with.

Six years before the Titanic disaster, the captain of a similar ship, Edward J Smith, told reporters: "I cannot conceive of any vital disaster happening to this vessel. Modern shipbuilding has gone beyond that."

And the White Star Line boasted in its promotional material: "The science of shipbuilding… has now reached to a degree of perfection in its highest form which has put wind and water almost to defiance. It has not only robbed the sea of its terrors, but has imposed upon its unstable surface comforts and even luxuries of travel surpassing anything on land."

Because of this confidence, the Titanic had enough lifeboats for only half its passengers and crew.


Thaning you sir! That was the episode I was talking about in an other thread, couldnt for the life of me find it again lol. Thanks mate, I feel much better now
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Posted on: 2006/11/3 14:06
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  •  h2oclub
      h2oclub
Re: titanic rivit thery
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I have always been a fan of the brittle steel thery.When Titanic was built steel making was in its infancy. Poorly made and lets face not very strong that combined with the freezing water made the steel very brittle. when hit with the force of the iceberg, the ship split much like an egg. Makes sence to me.
Posted on: 2006/11/10 6:46
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  •  MGY Friend
      MGY Friend
Re: titanic rivit thery
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I have not seen the new documentary, but this is what I think:

So much has been made about the poor quality of Titanic's skin that I want to really know if these inperfections were corrected if it would really stop the theoried 12 square feet of damage the iceberg caused.


This is what I would like to see done:

1. Stop testing Titanics rivits and steel for a while

2. Test some steel and rivits made to correct specifications of the time period (1912), and make it without ecessive slag or whatever Titanic's flaws were.

3. Test steel and rivits made to today (2006) specifications.

I'm not talking about a similation of hitting a piece of steel the size of a french fry with a big hammer as other experiments have done. I mean steel plates rivited together or computer similations.

This is what causes me to question the relevence of this topic. Everyone says it was the poor steel that caused the catosraphic flooding.

But it was only about 12 square feet of damage!!! Edward Wilding figured that out. It seems that even a glancing blow by a berg would cause more than that, especially if the steel is bad.

As Scientist Charles Pellegrino stated: The berg hit the ship with enough force to lift the Washington Monument 10 times. And with that force, modern day titanium could not hold up to that.
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when the waves are so many and
the ship is one?
The reason is that ship
has a purpose".

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Posted on: 2006/11/10 14:39
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Re: titanic rivit thery
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Quote:

MGY Friend wrote:
I have not seen the new documentary, but this is what I think:

So much has been made about the poor quality of Titanic's skin that I want to really know if these inperfections were corrected if it would really stop the theoried 12 square feet of damage the iceberg caused.


This is what I would like to see done:

1. Stop testing Titanics rivits and steel for a while

2. Test some steel and rivits made to correct specifications of the time period (1912), and make it without ecessive slag or whatever Titanic's flaws were.

3. Test steel and rivits made to today (2006) specifications.

I'm not talking about a similation of hitting a piece of steel the size of a french fry with a big hammer as other experiments have done. I mean steel plates rivited together or computer similations.

This is what causes me to question the relevence of this topic. Everyone says it was the poor steel that caused the catosraphic flooding.

But it was only about 12 square feet of damage!!! Edward Wilding figured that out. It seems that even a glancing blow by a berg would cause more than that, especially if the steel is bad.

As Scientist Charles Pellegrino stated: The berg hit the ship with enough force to lift the Washington Monument 10 times. And with that force, modern day titanium could not hold up to that.


That is exactly what they did, tested steel made to the EXACT spec's of the Titanic and came to there conclusions illistrated in the documentary.
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Posted on: 2006/11/10 17:23
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  •  MGY Friend
      MGY Friend
Re: titanic rivit thery
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Quote:
Martyn wrote: That is exactly what they did, tested steel made to the EXACT spec's of the Titanic and came to there conclusions illistrated in the documentary.


So your saying that the modern steel did not produce 12 square feet of damage? Rather it produced less or none?

Is the documentary saying that if the ship was made of modern steel, the damage would have been non exsistant?

I'm sorry, I need to see that program!
_________________
"Why is it the ship beats the waves
when the waves are so many and
the ship is one?
The reason is that ship
has a purpose".

Sir Winston Churchill


www.mrmarshall.proboards62.com
Posted on: 2006/11/10 17:32
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Re: titanic rivit thery
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Perhaps I should not of quoted your whole post, to be honest I can not remember the whole thing my friend soooo I would only be guessing, so yes you certainly MUST see this documentary.

Martyn
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Posted on: 2006/11/10 17:47
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