Just to spur some debate:

Why is it that in every movie, and in the general Titanic community, that Thomas Andrews is seen as an almost Heroic figure?

I mean really, what did he do that night? He helped put some people into boats and get to safety, then he went into shock and just stood there until the end.

And furthermore, why do people have such a different opinion between him and Bruce Ismay? After all, Bruce Ismay is documented through testimony that he did helped out a great deal in getting ladies into the boats, just as Andrews did.

Was it because Ismay actually stepped into a lifeboat and tried to survive? (which really, if we were there, we probably would do too).

Now, people will point out that because Ismay tried to heckle Smith to push Titanic full speed through an ice field, that he was negligent, and furthermore, he only cared about profit and headlines instead of peoples lives.

However, was it not Thomas Andrews that let Titanic leave Belfast with 20 lifeboats? Andrews knew very very well that the laws of the day were out of date for a ship as big as the ones he constructed.

Now, it is true that the White Star Line wanted fewer boats, but, if Andrews was such a man of good action, then why did he not push White Star for more boats (as Alexander Carlilse wanted)?

Instead, Andrews let Titanic leave his shipyard with fewer boats in order to, as Walter Lord put it, to "accommodate the client". Remember, Andrews was a businessman too, just like Ismay.

Cannot the action of sending a ship to sea with lifeboats to save only half onboard be just as negligent as persuading a ship's captain to run full speed through an ice field?

What do other people think?

good point.

u make all good points. but Andrews originally had like 62 lifeboats that were supposed to be on the Titanic. the number then got chopped down to 32 and then finally to 20. this is rediculous. i mean they shoulda kept the number at 32 or w/e the number was.
and ismay as u said pushed smith to put titanic to full speed. and ismay also as u said got into a lifeboat. and thomas andrews gave a spot in a lifeboat to someone else. ismay was selfish and took it for himself even tho there were many women standing on the deck that night. there were also third class women still waiting to come up for lifeboats if they weren't up there already. ismay is a jerk. andrews was polite and gave his life.

and btw, i'm sure Mrs. Andrews will love this question. lol...
good question too.

u kno me♥: You might want to read some of the testimony.

Ismay seemed to step into the lifeboat on an instictual move. He was helping load women and children into the boats for over an hour before he left the ship. If he was a villian who only cared about himself, I belive he would have slipped off much sooner.

The reason is that in actuality, when Callapsable C was lowered, all the other passengers were much further aft along the boatdeck (since most of the regular forward boats had already been lowered. There was no other passengers around, especially women and children standing around him. So, if the commanding officer was not going to lower that boat to capacity, then what is the use of Ismay (a human being) being just one more casualty? If Andrews had stepped into that boat (or any other boat), would history have judged him different? (I wish he would have just to hear his expert testimony )

And, with regarding Ismay, If I may point out, I believe you are stuck in that classic 1912 mindset of Women and Children first! Well, OK, it sounds good, but what does that do for equality? To pick and choose the beliefs back then is hard to do when regarding the bigger picture of what they mean (In regards to the way that women were treated back then -property, propped up on a pedistal -IE all the things that "Rose Dawson" hated.

People vindicated Ismay for surviving when so many children, and Women died. However, historians have stated that the early sufferage movement back then did not agree with this. They belived that it was the duty of every woman on board Titanic to refuse to get in the lifeboats first in the name of equality of the sexes.

Also, Ismay had no control over the third class women and children being trapped below. That was up to Ameican immigration standards regarding ship segregation (due to infectious desieses.

You said that Andrews gave up his place in a boat for someone? When was this? I do not remember him getting into a boat.

Furthermore, You stated that Andrews as polite and gave his life? Gave his life for what? The boats were never properly loaded anyway. He went into a catatonic shock, unresponsive to peoples' pleas to him to save his life. If anything, he gave up and did not even try to save himself (A quitter!)

Well, I've become longwinded (again...sorry ), but to shunn someone for thier survival instinct (especially in this day when chivalry is dead), I find rather pointless.

its in a way like a family in a burning house,if the father leaves it while his children and wife are still inside and the son stays inside and dies, the father is going to be looked on as a cowerd. Ismay wasnt just a passenger, he was the head of the white star. do you see what im saying?

i see MGY friend. but when i said Andrews gave A place in a lifeboat i meant he didn't take one. wat i was trying to say was that he didn't take one because HE IS A MAN. and i kno about the women and children first rule, but i don't exactly agree with that. i don't agree with women being looked at as prizes either. and besides andrews isn't a quitter. he was in shock that his pride and joy was sinking from beneath him. he loved Titanic more than anything.
and i kno ismay had no control ova the third class passengers. but he was acting as tho he had control over everything. so he coulda told the people holding the passengers underneath to unlock the gates. and i realize they prolly had diseases, but that doesn't make them any less special than the first and second class passengers.
and i'm tired of typing for right now. i'm actually enjoying this debate type thing. its kinda fun.

very good question. If you look at it from a design stand point. The orginal designor walked off after he pushed for more lifeboats and weas shot down and then along comes a very young Thomas Andrews who I believe was easily swayed by the superiors. I think many view Ismay's act of stepping into the lifeboat as the dark mark if you will, but he just did as any normal person would have done.

Very good comments everyone. Well done!

The father leaving his family in a burning house is a good analogy given by titanic_charlie.

u kno me♥ made the point that staying behind is "what it is to be a man" (I would like to think I would have done that, but I would only know if I actually experienced it).

And, lilcandycane made a great point about Andrews young age maybe being a factor in not standing up to White Star.

Great debate everyone!

I always like to question certain broad mindsets about the disaster, because, it seems if we do not question them, we can sometimes miss something.

I mean, for years, the broad realm ofTitanic buffs (myself included as a kid) thought that Titanic had a 300 foot continuous gash in her side. It was only about 10 or so years ago that we found this to be false (with regards to exploration and also reviewing expert testimony). This had to do with some of the press coverage and all its hype.

Finally, I posted this before, but speaking of press coverage, the Titanic Historical Society has a great article on how Ismay really became a villian in the story because of the American journalist William Randolf Herst (who did not like Ismay even before the disaster).

http://titanic1.org/articles/ismay.asp

like they say about carlise and the lifeboats thowhe order the wellon davit company to make a system in whcih could hold 4 lifeboats at the time of the construction of the titanic and olympic

the down side was white star line agreed to 48 lifeboats at the start but when carlise left harland and wolff he put a new law into pklace in which he said he didnt mean to sign in which made it even more easyer for white satr line to only had 20 or so lifeboatds and as well andrews failed to tell the officers on deck that the lifeboats were testsred for 65 heavy men in belfast.

andrews is seen as a hiroic figue i have to say the person in which i think was heroic is the belfast clad that workd with the wsl employs to keep the lights going long as possible in whcih these were employes of harland and wolff belfast.

furthermore i have to say this but ive read all about bruce ismay and that night and he did do bad by getting in the lifeboat but the offercier murdock allowed him in as he asked the officer to go in and murdock nodded becase they was no woman and children to be seen if murdock woudnt allow bruce i think he would off gone down with the ship like a gentelmen.

ismay had ordered speed trials the nexts day as they were hoping to be out of ice fields by day break. captin smith was only doing what was right that day as he was graduley speeding the titanic up althought that night her final 5 boilers were lit but would take all night to get to the correct pressure.

the titNIC WOULD OFF BETTEN THE SPEED OF THE OLYMPIC IFF IT DIDNT NOT HIT THE ICEBERG AND THINGS TO THIS DAY WOULD BE TOTAL DIFFRENT CAPTIAN SMITH PROB GO AND WORK FOR THE ANMY IN 1914 FOR THE GREAT WAR AND BRUCE WOULD OF STAYED AS THE MAGING DIRECTOR OFF IMM soz about caps lock.

MGY--We had a similar discussion months ago. I completely agree with what you said. I don't see him as a heroic figure at all.

And truly, I don't blame Ismay for getting in a lifeboat. I don't see him as a bad man for doing that.

Anyways, back to Andrews, I do not see him as a hero. I do have to commend him for trying to help people, closing port holes, etc. He meant well, as I'm sure a lot of people did that night. I guess I just have respect that he made a decision to go down with the ship and not try at all to survive. Maybe he felt guilty? Who knows....And about the lifeboats, I don't know who's career was placed on the managing of the number of lifeboats. However, I see J.P. Morgan and other big businessmen as guilty more than just the ship builder. Anyways, the ship can't sink right? Also, remember the times, people could loose everything and be reprimanded for challenging a higher authority in England at that time. Perhaps, he could have pursued it more, but I don't see him as the full blame.

I do think Chief Engineer Joseph Bell and his 4/5 other men with him are hero's. Staying down there, knowing no chance of escape, remaining at their posts to keep the energy going to send telegraphs. It shows more character than I can express.