[quote:95c32ace71="rose89"]i agree that it wasnt his fault that the sea was calm and there was no moon but as rose1912 said "he did pressure the captain". that for me is enough. i think he does have a huge part in the wreck. actually, the people that didnt deserve to die so much did die that night. much of the ice warnings didnt reach captain smith but he did feel responsible and went down with the ship. plus he wanted to refuse ismay's offer to go at full speed, but he went along with him (thats why he's responsible.)thomas andews felt bad because "he didnt build strong enough ship" so he went down too. so basicalley i think its bruce's fault and was very cowardly of him to get on a boat and leave.[/quote:95c32ace71]

And secondly, no one on God's green Earth DESERVES to die....but it's a part of llife....people die when they're meant to and HOW they're meant to.

then why did the 1500 people on the titanic die?

[quote:07ff02858e="NosieRosie"]Well Rose, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. Because, i'm sorry if this sounds at all rude, but I think you're too opposed to the idea that something other than Ismay had barrings on what happened that night that you won't even open yourself to truly hear what else factually happened that night to cause the Titanic to sink.

We're not saying Ismay wasn't involved in it at all, just that he isn't the sole reason. But I don't think that's the answer you want to hear.

And yes, Ismay probably should have gone down with the ship that night. But he didn't, and we're trying to tell you why. When you are in the kind of situation, I'm telling ya, you DO NOT think rashionally. I, having been in some fairly paniced situations, know this for a fact! It is human nature to try to prolong your own life. I'm quite sure that Smith and Andrews didn't just anchor themselves to a stable peice of furniture when water was flooding into the rooms they died. I'm very certain they swam around and tried to save their life, even though they knew they didn't want to live. It's just human nature, you can't change it. And, although Ismay's took a different form, it's still human nature.

But like I said, we're going to have to agree to disagree, because no one on here can get you to truly listen to the facts of what happened....[/quote:07ff02858e]

yes i do know all that. but it wasnt "gentlemanly" of him to do that. thats why im against him. what i dont understand is how come the captain decided that he was going to die when he wanted to live and it was in his nature to fight for it? and how could andrews die when he wasnt supposed to? what im trying to say is that i dont like ismay because he is weak and has no caurage, when he was one of the most responsible people for the wreck. i find that cowardly. i know id try to save my life but that would be when i have nothing to be ashamed of. i mean, he did shun himself after all that. whats the point of saving your life when you're not going to use it?

u make a very good point rose

actually i forgot to say that i am a very open minded person. i do get what you're trying to say but i just dont think its right.

[quote:13f7875799="rose89"]then why did the 1500 people on the titanic die?[/quote:13f7875799]

Because it was simply their time to go. And it was the fashion they were meant to go. I am a very strong believer in someone does not die until they are meant to and HOW they are meant to.

Now, there is real difference in someone is meant to die, and someone deserves to die. That's like, oh ok, you killed someone, so you deserve to die as well..no no..they don't deserve it.....they will die just as they're meant to. But I don't think anyone deserves to die. Do you get what i'm trying to say here?

[quote:3e6d29cdf3="rose89"][quote:3e6d29cdf3="NosieRosie"]Well Rose, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. Because, i'm sorry if this sounds at all rude, but I think you're too opposed to the idea that something other than Ismay had barrings on what happened that night that you won't even open yourself to truly hear what else factually happened that night to cause the Titanic to sink.

We're not saying Ismay wasn't involved in it at all, just that he isn't the sole reason. But I don't think that's the answer you want to hear.

And yes, Ismay probably should have gone down with the ship that night. But he didn't, and we're trying to tell you why. When you are in the kind of situation, I'm telling ya, you DO NOT think rashionally. I, having been in some fairly paniced situations, know this for a fact! It is human nature to try to prolong your own life. I'm quite sure that Smith and Andrews didn't just anchor themselves to a stable peice of furniture when water was flooding into the rooms they died. I'm very certain they swam around and tried to save their life, even though they knew they didn't want to live. It's just human nature, you can't change it. And, although Ismay's took a different form, it's still human nature.

But like I said, we're going to have to agree to disagree, because no one on here can get you to truly listen to the facts of what happened....[/quote:3e6d29cdf3]

yes i do know all that. but it wasnt "gentlemanly" of him to do that. thats why im against him. what i dont understand is how come the captain decided that he was going to die when he wanted to live and it was in his nature to fight for it? and how could andrews die when he wasnt supposed to? what im trying to say is that i dont like ismay because he is weak and has no caurage, when he was one of the most responsible people for the wreck. i find that cowardly. i know id try to save my life but that would be when i have nothing to be ashamed of. i mean, he did shun himself after all that. whats the point of saving your life when you're not going to use it?[/quote:3e6d29cdf3]

He's not a fortune teller, or someone who can see into the future. He didn't know how people woudl react to him living. That's WHY he secluded himself. Because everyone ELSE thought the same thing you did. He didn't do it because he was ashammed to have survived. He did it because people told him e was a coward for not going down like a gentelman. (Which by the way, I'd like to see anyone try to stick to the norms of society when the ship they're residing on for a week is sinking! If you knew you're going to die, I don't think you'd be doing what society says is good and bad. I'd be flippin out! I wouldn't care much about what I did!)
And, how do you know if Andrews or Smith were meant to live?? How do you know it wasn't their time?? Just because YOU didn't want them to die then??? No one wants good people to die, that's the thing. I'm sure Rick James's family didn't think it was his time to go just recently! People die when they're meant to. It's not up to us or anyone else. It's just what's supposed to happen.

yes i do get what you are trying to say. i just dont understand how 1500 people are meant to die? there were babies and children and ... its just unbelievable how they were supposed to die and they did.

More than 1500 people die each day! Woman and children included!! It just that they all happened to be on that same ship. That's the real kicker.

well yes. but it stil doesnt seem right to me. and they did die of a very "bad" death.